GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

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GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin on Sat May 15, 2010 11:03 am

GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!


Hi Everyone

After clarification from Excel we wanted impart the venue policy going forward for all events taking place there, plus we want to offer Registered groups, meetings, gatherings a better way of letting everyone know about them:

============================================

This is the wording from Excel Management:

For meetings, gatherings or group organised activities for instance photo shoots, over and above those featured as part of the main Expo event, we need to be made more formally aware of the activity itself so that each proposal is judged on its own merits and is deemed to be taking place safely within our due diligence and to the overall benefit of the event in question. This is standard practice for all events at ExCeL

Anyone taking part in separate events/gatherings intrinsically linked to an event, in your case MCM London Expo, should recognise that Expo is an admission payable show.

The easiest way of making us aware is to send an email to the organisers of the particular event registering your activity. A dedicated email address has now been set up - gatherings@mcmexpo.net , This will ensure your event is verified, logged and approved or not approved. One would fairly assume that people taking part in any additional activities will already be ticket holders familiar with the show and this should not cause any issues.

Consequently the activities will have the added benefit of being publicised on the main event website and identified as a supplementary part of the main Expo event that people may like to get involved with.

Any further questions on this subject should be directed to gatherings@mcmexpo.net.

==============================================

As you can see what is basically being said is that to take part in an organised gathering, group, photoshoot as construed by Excel (Who have the final word) and so on they are asking for it to be registered and approved or not approved.

This is not restricted to Expo but is the same for all events that now take place at Excel.

To take part in these gatherings you need to have a ticket for what ever event it is related to which in this case is Expo to be able to take part regardless of it being in the public areas of the Excel building or any where on the Excel estate, to see the boundaries of the Excel estate please view the following link: http://excel-london.co.uk/visitors/campusmap

To register your event, gathering photoshoot and so on please email gatherings@mcmexpo.net

This is FREE and the benefit is that your gathering will be publicised on a Gatherings/Meets page on the main London MCM Expo website which will go live shortly and help to let people who are not aware of your meet and may like to take part to find the relevant information.

Again a proviso of holding one of the registered meets, photo sessions, gatherings and so on is that you have a ticket for the day that the relevant meet is taking place and for the event in this case Expo.

In essence this will only cause an issue for anyone who goes on to the estate to join a meet that has not got a ticket for the particular day.

SO THE EASY ANSWER IS HAVE A TICKET FOR THE RELEVANT EVENT!

As has been said all along over all nothing has changed, no one is trying to stop anyone having fun over the Expo weekend but they are trying to keep a handle of who is on site for Security, Health & Safety reasons and so on but also making sure they have a relevant reason to be there and being on site to just sit with friends is in their eyes not a relevant reason!

Of course people who do not have a ticket to be at particular event and are on the Excel estate in the public areas they can be but to be part of a gathering, meet and so on you need to have an entry ticket to the relevant event taking place at Excel and valid for that day.

So again dont have a ticket DON'T attend, again that is the word from Excel!

Hopefully this helps, please feel free to email the address above with any questions.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby aoife on Sat May 15, 2010 2:10 pm

this is soooo draconian its unbelieveable. every single expo i feel more and more like it is a pile of rubbish save the kids outside actually having fun. of which most have paid. i won't be going this time (because of work arrangements) but i doubt i will be in the future either.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin on Sat May 15, 2010 2:36 pm

We are sorry that you view things this way.

It is the venues policy and to be honest the venue is not in a popularity contest.

We have to adhere to their rules so do the public.

As keeps being said overall nothing has changed from any other Expo except that venue want you to have a ticket to be on site taking part in the fun.

If you have a ticket there really is no issue if you do not the they are saying that you have no need to be there joining in.

It may sound Draconian to you but if you were a business on there scale you would want to protect your interests also.

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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby aoife on Sat May 15, 2010 2:39 pm

Admin wrote:We are sorry that you view things this way.

It is the venues policy and to be honest the venue is not in a popularity contest.

We have to adhere to their rules so do the public.

As keeps being said overall nothing has changed from any other Expo except that venue want you to have a ticket to be on site taking part in the fun.

If you have a ticket there really is no issue if you do not the they are saying that you have no need to be there joining in.

It may sound Draconian to you but if you were a business on there scale you would want to protect your interests also.

Admin

I dont have a problem with everyone having to have a ticket since I have never ever known of anyone on the expo ground WITHOUT a ticket. I do have a problem with excel wanting to know what all the little groups are planning to be doing and having that posted on the main page. If someone WANTS to have their groups event posted on the main page, cool but it should not be a requirement.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Granny Gertrude on Sat May 15, 2010 3:12 pm

I'm sure that if someone did not want their event on the main page their wishes would be respected- I would assume the offer to advertise events or gatherings is something that Expo are offering to sweeten the Excel's pill.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby aoife on Sat May 15, 2010 3:26 pm

Granny Gertrude wrote:I'm sure that if someone did not want their event on the main page their wishes would be respected- I would assume the offer to advertise events or gatherings is something that Expo are offering to sweeten the Excel's pill.

I hope that is the case because at the moment it seems really rather creepy.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin on Sat May 15, 2010 4:10 pm

Why on earth is it creepy?

Why is it that when an offer of help is handed out people seem to want to twist it?

If someone does not want their meet on the site then we ave no problem not putting it on there but what is the downside to it?

All we are doing is helping them to promote it to more people who may want to take part, there is nothing sinister involved.

If they did not want it mentioned then most would not post it on the messageboard.

And just to clarify a point there are many people who go to Expo weekend and from what we have been told other events who do not have a ticket.

This is really reinforced by the fact of the many postings we have found across Facebook and other messageboards with people saying they either spend the whole weekend outside without going in or transferred the ultra violet ink mark to their friends, thus again meaning they have no ticket.

So really as usual it is the smaller number who ruin it for the masses!

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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Granny Gertrude on Sat May 15, 2010 4:39 pm

There is indeed a tradition of 'loser-conning' events which have a maximum capacity, but of course Expo is designed so that anyone who decides to come along even at the last minute can get a ticket- very different kettle of fish.

Certainly the majority of people attending Expo appreciate that their money helps the event run again and helps it grow- the guest list, EuroCosplay, the increasing number of panels and cultural events as well as more space are all examples of the money being reinvested for mutual advantage. I have also noticed that there were some incredibly vocal people advocating not buying tickets to attend, and while it might be a minority they were shouting online loud enough for concern!
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin on Sat May 15, 2010 4:58 pm

Exactly as usual a case of the minority ruining it for the masses.

If you know someone who feels it is fine to attend without a ticket then they should be the ones you are pointing the fingers at.

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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby saintbanquo on Sat May 15, 2010 5:43 pm

You neglect to understand that this minority are not actually attending the event, but just happen to be near it.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin-2 on Sat May 15, 2010 6:13 pm

I think its fair to say it if you do not have a ticket then your not part of MCM Expo. And as such you should not be taking part in any activities in the MCM Expo Fringe during either day.

If you want to stand around you can. But only approved activities will be permited.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby BabemRoze on Sat May 15, 2010 6:51 pm

This doesn't effect myself but I was just curious.

When they say you need to be a ticket holder to join in organised events...well, as Granny Gertrude said Expo was designed so you can get Tickets at the very last minute if you want to. So what if you were to arrive at say 11pm but thought the line was rather long so decided to hang around outside until it was a bit shorter. Then you get asked for a ticket by whoever...I mean, would they really take "I'm going to buy one in about an hour" for a good enough answer :?

I know of course these aren't your own rules but Excel's, but would seem rather odd if they go and force people to buy the ticket at that moment. It seems like it'll ruin people's day especially if they didn't want to spend most of their time in line. I know that's part of expo but it depends on the type of person you are I suppose XD haha So uh..yeah :D
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin-2 on Sat May 15, 2010 6:55 pm

I really think you will not have any trouble, no one is going to be chasing around asking for tickets. What they will be doing is checking on any events, meet ups to confirm they are signed up for the MCM Expo Fringe and as such anyone taking part should have a ticket.

So I think you have nothing to worry about. You intend to be part of MCM Expo weekend and thats wonderful.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Pink Faerie Linzi on Sat May 15, 2010 8:40 pm

I dont see the big deal about people wanting to argue about some help for little groups. In a sense, it is slightly totalitarian-esque, its like keeping tabs on us all. But the help must be useful for those who are actually setting up a group, people should be a tad more appreciative. Also, for people like myself, who have never attended the expo before, awareness of group events on the expo ground to meet new people and get involved is definitely a bonus. It saves people the hassle of trying to figure out what to do with their time and makes it slightly easier to meet like minded people :)
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby NekoShuffleJump! on Sun May 16, 2010 1:51 am

I think recently there's been a lot of (unintentional) scaring going on! Not by anyone or anything but it's natural! When I heard that "Groups would have to register" I was quite concerned that it'd be like, every gathering of people must be LOGGED into the DATABASE so that should a cosplay crime take place, Admin and Admin-2 can both look you up on a register and track your fingerprints, shoe size and whether or not you're a THREAT to the system.

But then I realised it was basically optional and stuff xD

Either way, I think the fact that the Admins have both been driving this "Nothing is going to change" thing into the ground is telling, and I think it really is as they say.

Really, just wait and see I guess ^^ If there is anything drastic at May's expo in a couple of weeks then no doubt there will be such an uproar that something will have to change by October, so just...go with it I suppose ^^

I have to say I do feel bad for the people who have to buy tickets for both days when they would normally only get them for the saturday.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Enyaron on Sun May 16, 2010 3:44 am

How many people in a photoshoot will = Requires permission?

Since from what I've read it seems If I wanted to have a photoshoot with a group of people say about 10-20 for there cosplay group or something I'd be whinged at by security for not getting permission and the same goes for if it was about 5. So if you could Clerify that'd be wonderfull. also how small would a meet have to be so that I dont have to go through red tape to get the go ahead?

I'd like to assume you mean the rather HUGE, meet ups of more than 40 Odd people like the D-Grey.Man, Bleach and Naruto shoots, but I'd rather not be taking one or two photos of a group to have an angry security guard start shouting at me either since this could put people off quite a fair bit.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby tonythecylon on Sun May 16, 2010 7:36 am

Enyaron wrote:How many people in a photoshoot will = Requires permission?

Since from what I've read it seems If I wanted to have a photoshoot with a group of people say about 10-20 for there cosplay group or something I'd be whinged at by security for not getting permission and the same goes for if it was about 5. So if you could Clerify that'd be wonderfull. also how small would a meet have to be so that I dont have to go through red tape to get the go ahead?

I'd like to assume you mean the rather HUGE, meet ups of more than 40 Odd people like the D-Grey.Man, Bleach and Naruto shoots, but I'd rather not be taking one or two photos of a group to have an angry security guard start shouting at me either since this could put people off quite a fair bit.


Security at my local shopping centre pounce an anyone taking ANY photos, this included, as i witnessed last Xmas, a mum taking a picture of their kid in front of Christmas decorations. They quote public safety (terrorism etc).

So aside from the health and safety viewpoint, you can maybe understand excel (being a major London venue) will only want people there who should be and may want to stop photos or people going into certain areas.

Anyway, everyone should stop moaning about this and buy a ticket and support expo, it's not a charity, the more tickets they sell, the bigger the event will get and everyone wins.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin on Sun May 16, 2010 9:27 am

Like we have said all along no one is trying to stop anyone having fun and Excel I would imagine accept that there are spur of the moment meets, photoshhots and so on.

What they are saying is that if you are there on that particular weekend because a certain event is the catalyst so you should have a ticket to be there and be part of the group or fun.

It is accepted that meets take place all over the country, but if they are organised to be on the Excel site the same weekend as Expo it is plainly obvious that Expo taking place is the driving force for it to take place the same weekend as more people that would related to that meet are there.

Excel are not trying to restrict anything or in essence stop anything, all they are doing is showing common sense and due diligence as to what is on their property.

Why would you feel bad for the people who do not buy tickets to be onsite even though they are enjoying the same fun as the people who have paid their money to be there, the people who should fell aggrieved are those who have a ticket and have done it right way against the people who feel they should not have a ticket for what ever reason.

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NekoShuffleJump! wrote:I think recently there's been a lot of (unintentional) scaring going on! Not by anyone or anything but it's natural! When I heard that "Groups would have to register" I was quite concerned that it'd be like, every gathering of people must be LOGGED into the DATABASE so that should a cosplay crime take place, Admin and Admin-2 can both look you up on a register and track your fingerprints, shoe size and whether or not you're a THREAT to the system.

But then I realised it was basically optional and stuff xD

Either way, I think the fact that the Admins have both been driving this "Nothing is going to change" thing into the ground is telling, and I think it really is as they say.

Really, just wait and see I guess ^^ If there is anything drastic at May's expo in a couple of weeks then no doubt there will be such an uproar that something will have to change by October, so just...go with it I suppose ^^

I have to say I do feel bad for the people who have to buy tickets for both days when they would normally only get them for the saturday.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin on Sun May 16, 2010 9:33 am

The reason Excel are saying to register meets and photo sessions and so is to have an idea of what is going on on there land.

It is not to control everything, they realise that impromptu things will happen but all they are saying is that if you are onsite, part of a group, photoshoot and so on have a ticket.

We are offering people the chance to let others know about their organised meets to others who may like the chance to take part can, if people do not want this information on the site then we wont put it on there but at least we have it logged and the fact that most of the happenings are already on the messageboard means you want people to know.

So all you hace to do is make sure that people who take part in anything have a ticket, otherwise all you are doing is allowing those who dont buy a ticket for what ever reason make you look silly for doing the right thing.

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Enyaron wrote:How many people in a photoshoot will = Requires permission?

Since from what I've read it seems If I wanted to have a photoshoot with a group of people say about 10-20 for there cosplay group or something I'd be whinged at by security for not getting permission and the same goes for if it was about 5. So if you could Clerify that'd be wonderfull. also how small would a meet have to be so that I dont have to go through red tape to get the go ahead?

I'd like to assume you mean the rather HUGE, meet ups of more than 40 Odd people like the D-Grey.Man, Bleach and Naruto shoots, but I'd rather not be taking one or two photos of a group to have an angry security guard start shouting at me either since this could put people off quite a fair bit.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby PandoraCaitiff on Sun May 16, 2010 9:56 am

I am very concerned that my reading comprehension skills do not tally with how the Expo admins are reading the Excel message.

Excel have said they need to be told of all events taking place.
Excel have said they will judge these events to ensure they meet their safety guidelines
Excel have said that a benefit of this is publicity for the events
Excel have said they assume people taking part already have tickets and wil already know the rules.

Assuming participants have tickets is not the same as requiring all participants to have tickets
The publicity for events is a benefit of the monitoring of events. If the monitoring of events was clearly beneficial for participants (rather than for the Excel Centre itself) they would not need to throw us this bone.

Excel actions seem to be the normal (if a bit heavy-handed) actions of a business protecting its interests
Expo admins action seem to be the actions of spin doctors trying to tell us that things that are negative or neutral to us, are in fact great, and purely for our benefit.

I have bought a ticket for the Expo. I would never dream of travelling halfway across the country to an event if I hadn't paid to be there. But this is my first Expo and all this drama around registration, wristbands and monitoring is all having a negative effect on my enjoyment - and the event hasn't even begun yet.

Can we please have more plain speech and less spin?
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin on Sun May 16, 2010 10:20 am

Excel are asking for events to be registered so that they have an idea of what will be taking place on THEIR property over the weekend, they realise that impromptu meets and so on take place and would not wish to disrupt them as long as they are not contravening Health & Safety, the enjoyment of others and they have a ticket to be on site if they are taking part in activites.

We are offering the chance to help smaller meets or any meets to promote themselves to others for FREE, if they do not want to go on to the main website they do not have to but as many of them are already on the messageboard they are advertising it already but considering the higher traffic that goes through the main website this would help those who would want people to join in with them.

There is nothing sinister or Big Brother about it, its just an offer of help.

The reason that they are saying that 'They would assume' people taking part already have a ticket is because as a company they are taking it as read that you should have a ticket to take part in activities on site which is again their land which they have to preform due diligence over and the bottom line is they make the rules.

Excel have every right considering they own the estate to protect their interests, as would as you say any business.

The premise has not changed from any other Expo weekend, all of the activites that normally take place will most likely continue to do so, the only difference now is that you need a valid ticket for the day that you are taking part in an activity which is fair.

So please do not feel put down over the event, it is a fun weekend and will continue to be so, no one is going to strong arm anyone as long as if they are on site taking part in organised meets, photoshoots (NON profit making or charging for it, charging for something regardless if you are only covering costs is termed commercial) and so on and they have a valid show ticket.

So the only people this will affect are the people who do not have valid tickets which is not fair to those who have and that is where enforcement comes in.

Hopefully this clears things up for you.

Admin

PandoraCaitiff wrote:I am very concerned that my reading comprehension skills do not tally with how the Expo admins are reading the Excel message.

Excel have said they need to be told of all events taking place.
Excel have said they will judge these events to ensure they meet their safety guidelines
Excel have said that a benefit of this is publicity for the events
Excel have said they assume people taking part already have tickets and wil already know the rules.

Assuming participants have tickets is not the same as requiring all participants to have tickets
The publicity for events is a benefit of the monitoring of events. If the monitoring of events was clearly beneficial for participants (rather than for the Excel Centre itself) they would not need to throw us this bone.

Excel actions seem to be the normal (if a bit heavy-handed) actions of a business protecting its interests
Expo admins action seem to be the actions of spin doctors trying to tell us that things that are negative or neutral to us, are in fact great, and purely for our benefit.

I have bought a ticket for the Expo. I would never dream of travelling halfway across the country to an event if I hadn't paid to be there. But this is my first Expo and all this drama around registration, wristbands and monitoring is all having a negative effect on my enjoyment - and the event hasn't even begun yet.

Can we please have more plain speech and less spin?
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby PandoraCaitiff on Sun May 16, 2010 10:33 am

Admin wrote:Hopefully this clears things up for you.


It does. And that's the kind of plain, no nonsesnse, answer I was after.

Thank you.
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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Admin on Sun May 16, 2010 10:36 am

No problem.

Like I say have a ticket then there will not be a problem if involved in any activites.

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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Moozman on Sun May 16, 2010 12:15 pm

Admin wrote:Why would you feel bad for the people who do not buy tickets to be onsite even though they are enjoying the same fun as the people who have paid their money to be there, the people who should fell aggrieved are those who have a ticket and have done it right way against the people who feel they should not have a ticket for whatever reason.

Admin


@Admin-
To answer this question simply: Although the reason meets/events/picnic happen is because Expo is happening, those who attend these meetups do not feel Expo has a Claim to them, what PandoraCaitiff said that I feel is in the minds of most of the people who attend these meets is that since EXPO has not Helped, Funded, Provided Equipment or necessarily aided due to request for those who organize these meetups, they do not feel it is right for expo to say who can/cant attend their event.

This is not to say I do not understand your point of view ADMIN why should a bunch of freeloaders come to Expo and sneak into the halls make a mess, damage the property and make it increasingly harder for your relationship with the EXCEL centre?

What you need to ask is WHY THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T PAY?
There are always going to be people going to expo who will try and steal, sneak in or just cause trouble but i belive they are in the minority, I have been going to EXPO for a while and there are a few issues that I feel some people have that may be the reason why they go to the Excel on the day but don’t Pay:

-The EXPO is getting substantially larger with no end in sight this leads to problems such as overcrowding, long q's for tickets, and a generally more packed environment inside the halls.
Expo is getting Bigger.
More People are Attending.
The Ticketing system is still too slow.
The Flow of people in the halls still needs to be adjusted.

-Staff/Volunteers can often seem stressed and unwelcoming, although I understand this as most work really hard all weekend including setting up and clearing out perhaps more can be done to balance their workload.

-There is usually a serious lack of space for community gatherings or EXPO ORGANIZED free to attend events, allot of people don't want to spend money all day long and perhaps have even bought most of what they want at previous events, lack of variety between events.

-Some people don't feel there is much variety between Expo one year and the next with many of the same events, things going on one year being there the next.

-Its Hot.... SERIOUSLY IT’S HOT! Cosplayers doing big or intricate costumes can’t spend more than an hour in the main halls without melting....

-Finally and most importantly THERE IS NO FACE FOR THE RUNNING OF EXPO, no one knows who runs Expo, no one knows who they can address, provide suggestions to and so YES it does start feeling like BIG BROTHER.

I KNOW that EXPO organizers are putting more improvements in place EVERY EXPO and are trying to provide a better experience but if these fundamental issues aren’t dealt with, in the next few years Expo's success will unfortunately Plateau...

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Re: GATHERINGS - MEETS & Excel's feedback - LET US HELP YOU!

Postby Enyaron on Sun May 16, 2010 2:57 pm

Admin wrote:The reason Excel are saying to register meets and photo sessions and so is to have an idea of what is going on on there land.

It is not to control everything, they realise that impromptu things will happen but all they are saying is that if you are onsite, part of a group, photoshoot and so on have a ticket.

We are offering people the chance to let others know about their organised meets to others who may like the chance to take part can, if people do not want this information on the site then we wont put it on there but at least we have it logged and the fact that most of the happenings are already on the messageboard means you want people to know.

So all you hace to do is make sure that people who take part in anything have a ticket, otherwise all you are doing is allowing those who dont buy a ticket for what ever reason make you look silly for doing the right thing.

Admin

Enyaron wrote:How many people in a photoshoot will = Requires permission?

Since from what I've read it seems If I wanted to have a photoshoot with a group of people say about 10-20 for there cosplay group or something I'd be whinged at by security for not getting permission and the same goes for if it was about 5. So if you could Clerify that'd be wonderfull. also how small would a meet have to be so that I dont have to go through red tape to get the go ahead?

I'd like to assume you mean the rather HUGE, meet ups of more than 40 Odd people like the D-Grey.Man, Bleach and Naruto shoots, but I'd rather not be taking one or two photos of a group to have an angry security guard start shouting at me either since this could put people off quite a fair bit.
So security wont have ago at us if the group was sorta grabbied together dureing the expo also does the group part go for people coming down on the friday and possible meeting up on the steps? Also it'll only be an issue if the security there have an issue with how big the group is? or is it just that expo want to know whats going on and at most security will just ask us about it then be on there merry way? The issue I'm having is not about tickets(since I'm sitting next to mine as I type this lol) not about registering it the idea of a security guard getting up tight towards us because we have just that one more person that defines us as a group. They need to clerify how big a group is and how big meets need to be before you have to register them if they can tell you roughly what size a group/meet will be to warrent a thing on the forums then that'll be great and It'll stop the misconseption that if Three or more people go to theexpo center this requires red tape and permisions.
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Enyaron
 
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